Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 9:27AM by Steve Holt

I hope its ok if I jump in. I know this post was meant for Lance, but I had to comment on these two paragraphs from Greg. Also, the reply button didn't appear so I had to cut and paste the paragraphs. Greg wrote: "The sense of "liberation" you feel is the same sense anyone would feel from being liberated from a prison.. yours was being bound to a belief set that could never offer the reality of what we as people are wired for in this realm. The heaven or hell we experience in life is directly related to the quality of relationships we have here.. it only stands to reason that if we are intelligently engineered, one would have to conclude that the engineer has "ideal" operating parameters and specifications for optimum use and function... if there is no intelligent design or designer, then we are the most contradictory creatures in the universe and we live in a world of order that came out of total chaos... which is totally unreproducable... because it is not possible for this order of mathematical precision and certainty to spring up out of chaos... in fact it requires more denial to embrace that notion than the denial you have seen practiced in "religion" your whole life.. yeah denying the deepest personal connection with the "Intelligent Designer" is the cause of all of the "twists" of the anciet beliefs regarding relations to that Maker... You will discover the empty lack of real answers that you have embraced is one more fantasy that you have exchanged for the other one that you "left behind"... until we "reconnect" with our personal "Creator" we will continue to stumble through life finding it's contradictions while totally missing it's greatest possibilites in a relationship of true discovery of this planet, the cosmos and the most comforting reality of all... the discovery of our intended purpose and design by a realtionship with that designer.. " I'll keep it short. Greg, excuse me for being so direct but you speak as though you have the blue prints for life and the universe sitting right in front of you. Could you please give some examples as to why we're the most "contradictory creatures in the universe" and why is it totally unreproducable. Have you traveled the universe on a fact finding mission? These are simply your opinions and should be stated as such. Your logic is very flawed and is more in line with "flat earth theory". It takes more than conviction to make something true. Especially when speaking on subjects such as life and the universe. I do appreciate your acceptance and encouragement for self discovery.

EDITED by user on 2008-07-28 10:58:21

Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 11:44AM by Lux One

Greetings, I will comment once I return from work this evening... busy day : ( L

Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 8:06PM by Greg Deeter

Funny how your opinion of my opinion is just that, your opinion... is the fact that you are using a keyboard to express your opinion just my opinion? Geez... it amazes me how absolutely shallow that whole argument is about..did you travel the cosmos to "discover" all these "convictions" first hand? Just understand this... If I told you I have a relationship with this "Designer" I have predicated my whole "opinion" on, then that is the basis of my understanding of things... it is simply because that is what He (The Intelligent Designer) has told me... not unlike the opinions that you have shared about my opinions.. you told me what you think and even why.. I am only saying that without a personal relationship with our maker ... we have no real frame of reference... like somehow your capacity to express an opinion was some random act out of chaos...here you are trying to bring order into my opinion because it doesn't match your ideas of "correct" thinking... and then the audacity to minimize my experienced opinion with the broad strokes of "your arbitrary" logic! Talk about self important ignorance? You do believe there is a God... you see him every time you look into the mirror and you hear him every time you speak or think in your head... nice to finally meet the Maker... where are you from? Do you believe you had a mother and father? Then what about them? you can't "see" 40 generations back there... but they were still there... I never met them, but by golly you wouldn't be here if they hadn't been there... take it further back genius... the only real conclusion that can be reached by the "NO GOD" mindset is "order out of chaos".. tons of faith required to embrace that.. certainly lots more than hoo haa religion! Since you operate under the notion that there is no God, me telling you that I know Him and am being mentored and schooled by Him would only reinforce your conclusions about self delusion eh? So is there a point to the debate? Not really... experience teaches many things.. sometimes that experience can lead to wrong CONCLUSIONS... searching out the answer to thing or problem requires "testing or prooving" in a court of law they call it a trial... a presentation of facts and circumstances to provide some context for motive and purpose in the actions that are put on trial... Just deciding there is no intelligent designer doesn't make it so.. nor does just deciding that there IS one make it so... my contention is that I have indeed traveled the cosmos in a spiritual sense and discovered a great deal of the process of order in this universe.. a guided tour by the Maker.. not because I am special, but because I am honest enough to recognize that I didn't come from the primordial ooze or some climatic chaotic explosion that formed all this order around me... being unaware of how the combustion engine works (by design) does not mean that there was no maker of the engine... any fool can see that the mathematical percision of the way everything works around us is by DESIGN... not some random collision of happenstance... Well.. I'm sure this will not end pretty... go ahead and ease your mind with the idea that nobody can really know ANYTHING.. with certainty... except that we knwo with a certainty that no one knows anything with a certainty?? Yeah pretty hollow huh? Still turning over rocks... Greg

Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 8:38PM by Philip Jordan

Hey Greg--thanks for posting your well thought out points. I, for one, found your words inspirational.

Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 9:06PM by Greg Deeter

At least one more thing Steve... Regarding your need for an "example" of us being the most contradictory creatures in the universe... I said IF there was not intelligent design (which is proven by mathematical precision) we would be a "contradiction" to the notion that there is no intelligent designer because we exist with a number of intelligently designed "systems" working in our bodies to keep them alive and working THE WAY THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO.. the practice of medicine couldn't exist without predictable cause and effect.. the same thing holds true with your computer and the cyberspace world of data transfer... I am a telecom engineer... without "laws".. predictable designs of the world around us, we could do nothing with any predictable results... that would make the fact of our existence "contradictory" to the NO INTELLIGENT DESIGNER mindset Perhaps you could explain to the rest of us here... where all of this precise order did come from? Maybe not, since you don't have the "blueprint of it all" in front of you to comment on that.. The veiled hostility I find embraced by so many athiests is directed at flawed religious institutions that are the "opiate" of the people as one, Mr Marx, I believe was quoted as saying... your arguments are against the arguments.. because I speak with certainty and conviction I am a "flat earth" thinker? One thing rather clear was the obvious lack of reasons why my logic is "flawed"... repudiated with some higher logic? I saw none or heard none... I understand the hostility toward institutional Christianity... how it could drive one to betray thier own designer is the most tragic result of it all...... I have spent 31 years walking among the "bones" and carnage of religious zeal in this earth in many countries.. I have studied it and considered it and breathed it and tasted it.. You don't have to have great crap antennae's to pick it up... there is something very liberating about the peace and harmony that come in sweet and generous relationships with people.. we seem to be at our best and life is wonderful when relationships are "right"... there is something very sick about disunity, rancor, strife and ill will and sentiment.. it always leads to misery and separation and isolation.. the religious wars that rage inside of people trying to "fit" and find peace and harmony are victimized by the selfish designs of manipulators in religion as well as every walk of life.. who really needs the "blueprint" of life in front of them to see the misery in the world? No we need the blueprint to understand how it SHOULD be... Any monkey can see the obvious... it takes a real person to see that they are broken too and in need of a "reconnect" with what makes them the most fulfilled... Steve, while I appreciate your interest in "liberating" others from the clutches of generationally institutionalized religious bondage, maybe you should consider the possibility that there is someone like you trying to do the same thing FOR you.... only your belief system is non traditional.. it is still "propped" up by arguments as to why the other stuff you "left behind" was so wrong... I haven't heard anything new in your arguments that would convince me that you are a free man and religious practitioners are blind manipulated sheep... their source of delusion can be shown to them on the outside... yours is quite a bit deeper... yeah I know.. how the hell do I know ANYTHING about you?... I have met an ocean of hurt and broken people just like you in many places... cultures .. and even in historical writings. I am you... very aware of yourself.. sometimes it is really hard for there to be room for anyone or anything else in that place.. you fill your own room... The Designer has taken up the place of prominence in my room.. I don't know it all.. "all" is too much to really know anyway.. there is enough that I do know to bring a real deep sense of satisfaction and capacity to really reach out and do what I was built for... waking people up to the wondrous possibilities of a healthy and true walk with G O D.... the Intelligent Designer. Hope I didn't come off as shrill or condescending... after all that is kinda what I was taking you to task for.... LOL

Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 9:25PM by Lux One

Slow down Greg....hahahaha Where can I begin? I am reading and working on a reply.... L

Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 10:23PM by Aaron Mullens

Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 8:06PM by Greg Deeter

Funny how your opinion of my opinion is just that, your opinion... is the fact that you are using a keyboard to express your opinion just my opinion? Geez... it amazes me how absolutely shallow that whole argument is about..did you travel the cosmos to "discover" all these "convictions" first hand?

Hey Greg, You make a few interesting points here, and I'd like to take a look at them even further. It seems like what you're speaking to is an internal truth, which is great, because it shows a level of inclusiveness that many aren't used to seeing in Christianity. If a person looks within and takes their own spiritual journey, and that journey leads them to Christianity, or Islam, or Buddhism, or somewhere else that speaks to them, gives comfort, and guides them, then they too are "correct." Kind of a "many roads lead to God" approach, and that's refreshing. Or is that not what you're talking about? I'm guessing from the tone of your second post that this isn't the kind of inclusive thinking you're driving at. The "truth," in your example, is the thing that you believe in. Which makes sense; it's not often you hear someone say "this is the truth. I don't believe in it, but it is." So I guess the main question is this: billions of people around the world have taken their own spiritual journeys, and wound up with some quite varied results (even within the umbrella Christianity there are hundreds of variations). A lot of those people would say they were positive that they believed in the "correct" thing, and that it's even been revealed to them as the truth, in as indisputable an affirmation as their own God telling them "I am with you." I'm not going to insult you with the typical Christian "false choice" argument ("either everything blew up and happened by accident, or there was a designer") where you're offered MY right answer, and then one so absurd that you must select mine. I'll throw a few scenarios out there and we can drill down. One would be that there are several Gods, each offering a different perspective to different groups of people. If you believe in the Mere Christianity brand of instinctual human morality, this would also be a more than adequate explanation for the vastly different shades of morality that exist around the world. The next scenario would be one God handing out the correct version of things, and his nemesis offering comfort in the form of other Gods and beliefs. This would also mean that this God did not equip us with the necessary "sensors", if you will, to detect his good signals from another's bad signals. The hand of the Holy Spirit, and the hand of Allah feel the same to each group, which would make the Christian God deceptive, something the Bible claims he is not. By either emulating the sensation of another religion's experience (one cannot be sure that's not the case), or not equipping humans with the receptors to know any better, this God would be openly participating in a lie. A third scenario comes back to one of human nature, and how we give ourselves comfort. And in fact everything you've said in your post is true. It's true because you believe it is. We all know belief and existence are mutually exclusive concepts, but I'll give you an example of how truth is in the eye of the believer, and how it's impossible for you to be wrong. The old "flat Earth vs. spherical Earth" debate still, in a very small way, continues to this day. The executioners of many years ago took people's lives for believing in a spherical Earth. The Bible plainly states that it's a flat disc. Today the same verses are used to argue that the Bible knew it was a sphere all along ("the circle of the Earth" no longer interpreted as "disc," but as "sphere"). So what, the kings had it wrong, and now we've got it right. But no, that's not the case. They WERE right, just as you're right now, and just as others will be right about the Earth being different things in the future. They were right because they believed they were, and God told them so. Let me address some of your most recent post----- "I said IF there was not intelligent design (which is proven by mathematical precision) we would be a "contradiction" to the notion that there is no intelligent designer because we exist with a number of intelligently designed "systems" working in our bodies to keep them alive and working THE WAY THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO.." Mathematical precision has not proved there is intelligent design (it hasn't expressly proved anything other than math, although recent experiments have proved macro-evolution at the cellular level). I'd like to know what studies arrived at that conclusion. The only reason we perceive our bodies as "working the way they're supposed to" is because it's the only way we've ever seen them working. We're pretty frail. We get sick, we get injured, we get diseases, we die. If the norm was having bodies where our organs were constantly falling out and we survived in very small numbers, we'd still feel that we were working the way we're supposed to. What other way is there? "Well.. I'm sure this will not end pretty... go ahead and ease your mind with the idea that nobody can really know ANYTHING.. with certainty... except that we knwo with a certainty that no one knows anything with a certainty?? Yeah pretty hollow huh?" That's the exact opposite of hollow. That's the definition of beauty. Which is more wondrous .. "2+2=4", or a complex and sprawling equation that becomes more unsolvable the more we chip away at it? I'd rather take the unknown for what it is. I've taken my own spiritual journey and found no bearded men, just a lot of wonderful questions and beautiful people and things. The answer to one of those questions is sometimes more questions, but it's never been "God." And by the logic you put forth in your second post, I'm just as right as you, and I appreciate the sentiment!

EDITED by user on 2008-07-28 22:35:56

Posted on Mon, July 28th, 2008 @ 10:43PM by Lux One

Greg,Steve, Aaron and others, I am thrilled that you posted here and I am sure that this discussion will continue. Passion is a wonderful thing so I ask that we keep this discussion civil as I know we will. With four kids jumping on the bed, my comments have been slow going. To prevent the illusion that we are ganging up on a particular person... I will post at another time to allow the current discussion to continue and others to jump in. Good Times... L

Posted on Wed, July 30th, 2008 @ 2:08PM by Steve Holt

Wow Greg, you've said alot. Q: The claims you make about intelligent design are unproven. Why state them as fact? Yes, I do have "the audacity to minimize your opinion". I never would have if I had realized you were such a sage. You claim god talks to you. I don't believe you and I said it. That made you pretty angry, huh? Greg, you make so many accusations about a person and come off so self righteous, its really hard to imagine you're as content and understanding as you claim. I really think the man doth protest tooo much in your posts. Your "Do you believe you had a mother and a father?" line of reasoning is just as easily a starting point in support of evolution. Its not faith that lets me understand my ancestory, its observable data. By looking at my DNA I can see more than forty generations back. I can also see geographical origins and even animal ancestory. This isn't religion vs. evolution based on which one takes more faith to believe, like you claim. Its about decisions based on evidence supported fact. Let me explain why I think your logic and argument is flawed. Its simple, there is not any of the scientific data you claim to support ID in existance. Higher logic isn't needed to dispute you. To the contrary, there is a wealth of data to support "order from chaos" in the fields quantum physics, organic chemistry, and astrophysics just to name a few. As we all know, the principals of evolution are being reinforced by real science everyday. The ID concept says mans origin is known and now you just look for data and logic that seems to support it. Its reverse engineering. This is not the way to make scientific discovery. You say you're honest enough to admit you didn't come from primordial ooze or a cosmic explosion; what does that mean? So, you can claim to have lived a million years and traveled to the furthest reaches of space, seen everything there is to see and talked to every god, walked amongst bones and looked into every eye, but it doesn't make it true. I don't need to present arguments why I'm a free man and religous practioners are "manipulated sheep". It shows in the way I live as clearly as history shows religion to result in hatred, war, and ignorance. You claim to know me and understand everything but you're no prophet. You sound like a snake oil salesman that just got in some new product. The way you denounce other forms of religion while exalting your own is the same song that all "new" denominations sing. Just like The Who said "Meet the new boss, Same as the old boss". What if the world worshipped new ideas and we used our energy to explore and understand; instead of kneeling down before people that say they've got it all figured out?

EDITED by user on 2008-07-30 17:46:07

Posted on Wed, July 30th, 2008 @ 3:30PM by Steve Holt

This video is of Ken Miller, a professor of Biology @ Brown U, talking about his experience testifying in the Kitzmiller v. Dover intelligent design in school trial. I wanted to add it to the discussion since we're getting into the ID debate. Watch till the end its quite interesting.

EDITED by user on 2008-07-30 15:50:39